Discuție Utilizator:Doruuu

Hello Doruuu, thanks for Your interest in this project, it is not yet locked, only the main page has been protected due to vandalism, if You wish to create entries, that should be no problem, You can always contact me if You have any questions or need help, best regards, --pulju _{(:> )=|} 00:20, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

â -> ã

Hi, Doruuu. Welcome to roa-rup.wikt :) I have changed some of the â in your contributions into ã. Given the fact that this is a dictionary, spelling is important and basic. When I can I'll try to ask for somebody to instal a basic editing help for users not having an Aromanian-friendly keyboard. Regards. --Piolinfax 18:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello Piolinfax. Thanks! I agree - correct spelling is essential. With Aromanian though, there is no generally recognized spelling. Most Aromanians are not even aware that there are some tentatives of formalizing Aromanian writing, and they don't know how to write down their language. One such a tentative is this. Its usage of 'ã' is rather confusing - 2 letter that sound completely different (equivalent to Romanian â and ă) are written the same letter (ã). I prefer to use â, ă to eliminate any source of confusion between, for example arâu (river) and arău (bad) which would be written both arãu. Doesn't make sense to use the same writing for 2 words that sound different as long as we can use a convention used in Romanian in exactly the same way, in the same context, for the same purpose and with the same pronunciation. An inconsistency in those conventions: using the letter â, but only for the name of the language itself (Armâneascâ), so actually the correct name for the laguage itself here on Wiktionary should be Armâneascâ, not Armãneascã. Another thing - all my Aromanian relatives, when asked about the word 'armãneashce', simply raised their shoulder - that should of course be 'armãneashte'/'armâneashte'.

That said, I'm not a linguist. I don't pretend I know what's the best Aromanian writing, and I only have suggestions that make sense for me. I guess this issue is deep ... I'll ask around; for now I'm stuck. Regards, --Doruuu 21:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Doruuu. Thanks for your message and sorry for the delay. I did not know about the Aromanian distinction between the ã versus â & ă. I just followed the spellings I found in roa-rup.wikipedia.org. A Wiktionary can be valuable on this topic because, at least theoretically, should have every version of accepted forms. Even if one of the spelling systems were eventually accepted, the lemmata following the other system(s) could be kept as historical forms [used from year X to year Y]. So, arâu, arău and arãu should be here relating and linking to each other. About the name of the language in Aromanian, maybe the best option is discussing it in here, in roa-rup.wikipedia.org. I'll try to be back as soon as possible. Regards. --Piolinfax ^(messages) 16:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the ã versus â & ă issue is part of a larger issue: the Bitule 1997 spelling conventions versus Romanian-like spelling conventions. Both are currently used, by different groups of Aromanians, and I think we should support them both. Regards, --Doruuu 18:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm back before I expected! (sheer luck in the library I am :) I had no time to tell you that if you leave a message for me in your user page, I may never see it. Actually, when you wrote in my user talk page I got an automated e-mail that alerted me of it, so this last one is a better option if you want to let me know something. regards. --Piolinfax ^(messages) 17:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Special characters in MediaWiki:Edittols

Hi, Doruu! If you can translate the English phrase and sentence in the code below, the whole thing could be inserted by DerHexer in MediaWiki:Edittools, then, a handy alternative keyboard for unusual symbols and letters would be ready under the edit box :). If more unusual letters or symbols are required just let me know. Regards

To be translated:

• Edition help =
• Click on the blue letters and symbols to include them in your edition =

-Piolinfax 11:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Click on the blue letters and symbols to include them in your edition:
Edition help: Ã Â Ă ã â ă ··· «» - † º ª · – — · [] [[]] {{}} · ~ | °

I have added  à and â ă. How do you say Click on the blue letters and symbols to include them in your edition and Edition help in Aromanian? Regards --Piolinfax ^(messages) 16:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. My best guesses are:

"Click on the blue letters and symbols to include them in your edition" = "Selectatzi hramli njirli ta-s li adâvgatzi"

"Edition help" = "Agiutor"

I took the liberty of adapting the phrases in order not to insert words that I'm not sure about, while still keeping the spirit of the context. The two phrases actually literally translate to "Click on the blue letters to include them" and "Help". I am not sure how to write 'hramli' - the 'h' is pronounced in a special way. I guess we can update that in the future if needed, once we figure that out. Regards, --Doruuu 20:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Great. It has not to be literal. Even if "hramli" is mispelt, it seems to be understandable, which now is the main point. It can later be corrected if wrong. Thanks a lot. :) --Piolinfax ^(messages) 10:33, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

arâu, arău and arãu

I created arâu, arău and arãu as a rough guide of what it should be. Could you please translate the things I wrote between **double asterisks** and improve those lemmata with some definitions? I also changed Template:-roa-rup- and Template:roa-rup (but did not change the category inside Template:-roa-rup- yet) at least temporarily y we decide against it. Working with templates can make many things easier. --Piolinfax ^(messages) 18:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Excellent decision, I agree we should be tolerant on spellings. I saw these kinds of issues bursting to flames in other places, so let all Aromanians feel comfortable here.

In order to keep things moving, I'd suggest leaving the words using â, ă, ã in the original form used by the author, or contacting the author for discussing the issue, and extending this politics towards possible other situations.

"Adjective" = "Adjectiv", "Alternative spellings" = "Cum s-mai angrâpseashti" (literal: "How it's also written")

I'd suggest (not too strongly) we replace "Ethimologhia" with "Di iu ini" ("Where it comes from") and "Pronuntsare" with "Cumu-s dzâtzi" (or "Cum s-dzâtzi", literal "How to say it").

Quick question: why such a complicated tag for Aromanian ('roa-rup')? Couldn't it be someting simpler (like 'aro')? Regards, --Doruuu 20:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I know "roa-rup" is strange but probably "aro" is already taken by other language. Most of the codes in Wikimedia follow an ISO Standard and probably trying to changing is would be problematic. Regards. --Piolinfax ^(messages) 10:37, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Even though all the possible forms should be in the lemmata data base, it would be good to agree a single standard to write inside the entries and articles of roa-rup.wikt in order to make it as consistent as possible, anyway, as it seems it is a controversial issue, nowadays what you propose seems the better option to me too until some system settles down as more widely suitable, likely, used, accepted or "officialized". I'll create a few templates now (you can create them, too) in order to ease some work. The good thing about templates is they tend to create a consistent appearance for the place and their contents can be changed easily any time all over the site and not by changing every page one by one manually. Regards. --Piolinfax ^(messages) 10:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

You are right. The standardization work has been done already, and ISO639-2 says that the Aromanian language code is 'rup'.

'roa' specifies 'Other Romance' languages - I guess, for which there's no explicit code. As long as there's an explicit language code, we can use that rather than using the 'Other Romance' tag. Maybe we can stick to 'rup' instead of 'roa-rup'?

Yes, using templates is a good idea. I wonder if there are also templates for the look&feel of the web pages (colors, background images, stuff like that). Regards, --Doruuu 18:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I have just created these templates for titles: Template:-noun-, Template:-adj-, Template:-adv- and Template:-ety-. You can make them appear by writing them like {{-adj-}} in the edit windows. {{-noun-}} and {{-ety-}} can be moved to names more suitable for Aromanian. I did not create the other ones yet because of lack of time and some doubts I will let you know next time.

Important question: What are the plurals of "sustantiv", "adjectiv" and "adverb". Thanks. Regards. --Piolinfax ^(messages) 11:41, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

"Substantiv" --plural--> "Substantivi"

"Adverb" --plural--> "Adverbi"

"Adjectiv" --plural--> "Adjectivi"

These, again, are just my best guesses. When in doubt, I ask my relatives. When nobody around knows, I look into all the references that I can get. Maybe it would be good to build a public list with such references ... My best references so far are this and this, that reflect the Romanian-like conventions respectively the Bitule 1997 conventions (these are the only 2 tentatives of formalizing Aromanian that I know).

I can not stress enough the need for tolerance regarding spelling and pronunciation. We must prepare to deal with passionate and politically-biased points of view. There are a few different political Aromanian currents: the filo-Romanians, the filo-Greeks, the Bitule 1997 current, and the bulk of Aromanians that don't belong to any political current and are as quite passive (again, this reflects my current limited understanding).

These currents have sometimes been in conflict over minor issues, promoted to ridiculous proportions. For example - over spelling, or over questions such as - 'Are Aromanians Greeks or Romanian?'

I would suggest we have a strong position over any tentative of politicization of this Wiki: all that can contribute to preserving Aromanian words and culture are welcome, and bitter political disputes should be left outside. Everyone should be able to write the way he/she wants, and spelling corrections should be handled on a peer-by-peer basis. Sorry to insist so much on this, but I just saw how this degenerated ... By the way, the Aromanian Wikipedia imposes the Bitule 1997 spelling conventions, which is unfair for part of contributors. Regards, --Doruuu 18:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

> how about switching from 'roa-rup' to 'rup'?

Well, I do not really know why projects in Aromanian are allocated in "roa-rup.XXXX" instead "rup.XXXX". Anyway, if the code were to be changed, that change would affect all the other Wikimwedia projects in Aromanian, not only the Wiktionary. I currently do not have easy internet access or much free time to discuss this type of topics. Besides I am not Aromanian and I am just very slightly acquainted with all things Aromanian, so I think better places to discuss about the roa-rup/rup option would probably be the Aromanian Wikipedia or Meta.

Yes, I know how hot things can become when discussing things like spelling can be when there are different factions entrenched in their own views :| ... This dictionary can and should deal with all spellings and produce as much information about them as possible. :)

Thanks for the translations. I think they would do for the categories :)

> I wonder if there are also templates for the look&feel of the web pages (colors, background images, stuff like that)

Well, of course, but we the ones who have to create them ;). I do not know much about HTML, but if you have some specific idea, please let me know and I'll try to bring it to reality according to my knowledge. You can also learn a lot from other wiktionaries' templates: most of the templates I create are totally or partially "nicked" from other Wikimedia projects. :D --Piolinfax ^(messages) 17:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

--Piolinfax ^(messages) 17:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Prota frãndzã & Agiutor

Hi, Doruuu. Last time I was here I forgot to let you know that The edit help for the characters Ã, Â, Ă, ã, â and ă has already been installed by DerHexer and he also removed the protection of Prota frãndzã, so it can be edited now. regards. --Piolinfax ^(messages) 18:09, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Great, thanks a lot! Let's see what we can do here ... --Doruuu 21:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)